T4
4. "Proof"
texts ( including the John 1:1 controversy )
- Proof texts quoted by
trinitarians
- Coptic texts
- How Greek is handled and
misunderstood
- Use of logic to show trinity
doesn’t exist
(a) Proof texts quoted by
trinitarians.
Let us look at John 10:30
"I and [my] Father are one."
Does this mean
they are the same person? For starters let us look at the previous verse:
“My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is
able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.” ( John
OK, so here we have Jesus saying
his father is separate to himself. This alone is strong evidence against the
trinity.
“Then
the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good
works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone
me?
The
Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for
blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus
answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he
called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be
broken;
Say ye
of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou
blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
If I do
not the works of my Father, believe me not.
But if
I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and
believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.” ( John 10:31-38 )
So in John 10:36 we have Jesus
saying "I am the Son of God". That is very clear.
But many people say "Ah,
but in John
Well scripture must hamonise -
so lets look at other scriptures and see what other evidence we can find.
“These
words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour
is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou
hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as
many as thou hast given him.
And
this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus
Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I have
glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to
do.
And
now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had
with thee before the world was.
I have
manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine
they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. “ ( John
17:1-6 )
Ok - so here
Jesus is talking about "they" ( the Apostles ) as referred to in the
passage here - they are given to Jesus by God.
Keep this in mind as we read the
rest of the passage :
“Now
they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
For I
have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received
[them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed
that thou didst send me.
I pray
for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me;
for they are thine.
And all
mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come
to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given
me, that they may be one, as we [are].
While I
was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me
I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the
scripture might be fulfilled.
And now
come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my
joy fulfilled in themselves.
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they
are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I pray
not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest
keep them from the evil.
They
are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify
them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
As thou
hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
And for
their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the
truth.
Neither
pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through
their word;
That
they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they
also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent
me.
And the
glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we
are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that
the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast
loved me.
Father,
I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that
they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before
the foundation of the world.
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee,
and these have known that thou hast sent me.” ( John 17:7-25 )
Ok.....so here we have
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee,
that they also may be one in us"
So this logically means that as
God is in Jesus then the apostles must be in God and Jesus.........boy its
getting crowded in that trinity.......
This is
similar to other scriptures like eating Jesus body regards his Last Supper
where Jesus was talking in metaphor/meaning, not literally.
Here in this case we see God is
"in" Jesus IN PURPOSE - a common purpose in preaching
Gods word.
This logically is all it can mean.
It also means that to use this as a "proof text" is grasping at
straws since the context of the passage is totally ignored by trinitarians.
Additionally, we see this
scripture:
“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that
ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but
[that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same
judgment.” (1 Cor
Now for 1 John 5:7.
1 John 5:7 is a significant
scripture, namely because of its so-called support of the trinity. But does it?
In the KJV we see this text:
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” ( 1 John 5:7 - KJV
)
Well on the surface you would think
case closed / its a done deal / all over red rover - correct?
Well no.
Bear in mind the KJV is but one
translation and as we have seen context of scriptures can influence meaning.
Some Bible texts have also been wrongly translated. This comment of "all
these three are one" is generally recognised by Bible scholars as a
deliberate addition by trinitarians in the middle ages. Most Bibles have
removed this , as rightfully they should.
In context lets also look at 1
John 5:8
“And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the
water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” ( 1 John 5:8 )
So is spirit, water and blood a
trinity too? No.
But lets look at what scholars
have to say about what the KJV translation is based upon:
"5:7 For there are three that testify, 5:8 the Spirit and the water
and the blood, and these three are in agreement." --
Now lets look at this article ( some of it shown below ) http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1186
“Before toV pneu'ma kaiV toV
u{dwr kaiV toV ai|ma, the Textus Receptus reads ejn tw'/ oujranw'/, oJ pathvr,
oJ lovgo", kaiV toV a{gion pneu'ma, kaiV ou|toi oiJ trei'" e{n eijsi.
5:8 kaiV trei'" eijsin oiJ marturou'nte" ejn th'/ gh'/ ("in
heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 5:8
And there are three that testify on earth"). This reading, the infamous
Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King
James translation. However, the evidence—both external and internal—is
decidedly against its authenticity. Our discussion will briefly address the
external evidence.1
The reading seems to have arisen in a fourth century
Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the
Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text
used by the Roman Catholic Church.
The Trinitarian formula (known as the Comma Johanneum)
made its way into the third edition of Erasmus’ Greek NT (1522) because of
pressure from the Catholic Church. After his first edition appeared (1516),
there arose such a furor over the absence of the Comma that Erasmus needed to
defend himself. He argued that he did not put in the Comma because he found no
Greek manuscripts that included it. Once one was produced (codex 61, written by
one
and......
“Significantly, the German translation done by Luther
was based on Erasmus’ second edition (1519) and lacked the Comma. But the KJV
translators, basing their work principally on Theodore Beza’s 10th edition of
the Greek NT (1598), a work which itself was fundamentally based on Erasmus’
third and later editions (and Stephanus’ editions), popularized the Comma for
the English-speaking world. Thus, the Comma Johanneum has been a battleground
for English-speaking Christians more than for others.”
End of quote.
So we can see historically, the 1 John 5:7 has no leg to
stand on.
The score so far - Common sense 2, trinity 0.
Now lets look at other translations - of these , 4 of 14
are similar to the KJV translation, which means 10 aren't:
1 John 5:7
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For there are three that testify:
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
There are three witnesses:
King James Bible
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
American Standard Version
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,
because the Spirit is the truth.
Bible in Basic English
And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit
is true.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And there are three who give testimony in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
Darby Bible Translation
For they that bear witness are three:
English Revised Version
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,
because the Spirit is the truth.
Tyndale New Testament
(For there are three
which bear record in heaven, the father, the word, and the wholy ghost. And
these three are one.)
For there are three that give testimony-- the
Spirit, the water, and the blood;
Webster's Bible Translation
For there are three that bear testimony in
heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.
World English Bible
For there are three who testify :
Young's Literal Translation
because three are who are testifying in the
heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three --
are one;
2001 Translation
So, there are three [things] that testify [about
him], 8 the Breath [of God], the water, and the blood, and all three agree.
"The passage (1 John 5:7) is absent from the
manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic,
Arabic, Slavonic) except the Latin; and it is not found in the Old Latin in its
early form, or in the Vulgate as issued by Jerome...The earliest instance of
the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a
fourth century Latin treatise."
-- A Textual Commentary on the Greek New
Testament, 2nd Edition, by Bruce M. Metzger, United Bible Societies, 1994, page
648.
As we note above, this verse is not in the Sahidic
Coptic New Testament, nor in any other really ancient version. It is an
unauthorized addition to the Scriptures. It is found in no Greek text earlier
than the 10th century CE, where it is found as a variant reading.
"The passage is quoted by none of the Greek
Fathers, who had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the
Trinitarian controversies."
-- (Metzger, page 648)
"That these words are spurious and have no
right to stand in the New Testament is certain."
-- (Metzger, p. 647)
So........... if 3 people all agree on one thing, does
this mean all 3 are the same person? No. Of course not.
Certainly they are of the same idea or similar
persuasion or think similarly, but the same person? No.
As we have seen so far, history and common sense are
slowly discrediting the trinity as a logically supportable idea.
Given the Bible never ONCE mentions the trinity, why
would a loving God of order create a hard to understand mystery this churches
proclaim as "essential to salvation"?
Heres one scripture that Trinitarians say
"proves" God and Jesus are one and the same.
This being John 8:56-59
"Your father Abraham
rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore
said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen
Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before
Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him;
but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
Well its obvious that Jesus was around prior to Abraham
as we see at Collossians 1:15 :
“Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus,
and of the love [which ye have] to all the saints,
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven,
whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the
world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye
heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:
As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant,
who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
Who also declared unto us your love in the
Spirit.
For this cause we also, since the day we heard
[it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with
the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all
pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of
God;
Strengthened with all might, according to his
glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us
meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood,
[even] the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in
heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be]
thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by
him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all
things consist.
And he is the head of the
body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in
all [things] he might have the pre-eminence. ( Collossians 1:4-18 )
So, logically then, being firstborn of every creature
means that "before Abraham, I was/I am " makes logical sense.
Jesus helped God make the world, and the making of the
world was before Abraham existed, so Jesus was there before Abraham.
Also, if Jesus was the firstborn of all creatures, then
if he had a beginning, he cannot be part of God because God is eternal.
OK, so we see Jesus had a beginning.
So now how do we understand that Abraham saw Jesus day (
the day of his birth )? Obviously Jesus was born some years after Abraham died.
Let us look at translations of John 8:56 :
(1) From The Complete Biblical Library (John),
"Jesus' words
indicated that Abraham rejoiced even at the prospect of seeing Jesus' day. 'My
day' places the emphasis on 'my.' 'My day' is the grand and glorious day of
Messiah. This was the very time the Jews were witnessing but rebelling against.
The phrase '(Abraham) saw it' refers to the atoning work Jesus was to
accomplish at
(2) From scholar Raymond E. Brown in his commentary on
the Gospel of John (Anchor Bible series, volume 29):
"When he saw it". If an incident in
Abraham's life is meant, it may be the birth of Isaac which was the initial
fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham, the first in a chain of actions that
would ultimately lead to the coming of Jesus. This fits the theme of joy."
(page 360)
( Please see the scripture at Matthew 1:1-16 for
the complete linage of Jesus directly back to Abraham. )
( Please see the scripture at Gen 12:1-3 where
God says all families of the earth will be blessed ( by Jesus ) through Abraham
)
(3) From The New Testament in
the Language of the People, by Charles B. Williams, Sprawls Educational Publishing,
John
(4) The
John
(5) The New Testament in the Language of Today, by
William F. Beck, Concordia Publishing House, Saint Louis, Missouri, 1964
edition.
John
So we can see that some
translations are either not accurate or plain wrong. The translations above
make logical sense.
(6) Other translations:
GWT: Your father Abraham was pleased to see that
my day was coming. He saw it and was happy."
KJV: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day:
and he saw it, and was glad.
BBE: Your father Abraham was full of joy at the
hope of seeing my day: he saw it and was glad.
DBY: Your father Abraham exulted in that he
should see my day, and he saw and rejoiced.
WEY: Abraham your forefather exulted in the hope
of seeing my day: and he saw it, and was glad."
WBS: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day:
and he saw it, and was glad.
YLT: Abraham, your father, was glad that he might
see my day; and he saw, and did rejoice.'
We should also consider the greek word often translated
as "see" ( "see" is one of many translations for the Greek
word )
From Strongs Greek Dictionary -
eido (i'-do) ( Strongs number 1492. )
A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the
others being borrowed from the equivalent optanomai and horao;
properly, to see (literally or
figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know, be aware,
behold, X can (+ not tell),
consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see,
be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot.
So what is translated as
"see" may suit a theology, but in context of what the birth of Isaac
provided was proof of God bringing Jesus Christ as Messiah to the earth.
Consequently, Abraham would have seen/percieved Jesus' day because Issac was
the first step to the coming of Jesus Christ, as God said all nations would be
blessed ( because of Jesus Christ ) from Abrahams seed ( Isaac ).
Now lets look at John 1:1
John 1: 1is the heavy duty so-called proof of the
trinity. This is THE text usually trotted out to "prove" the trinity
is rock solid.
But is it?
Lets look at some translations
New American Standard Bible - In the beginning was the
Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
GOD'S WORD® Translation- In the beginning the Word
already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
King James Bible - In the beginning was the Word, and
the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
American Standard Version - In the beginning was the
Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Bible in Basic English - From the first he was the Word,
and the Word was in relation with God and was God.
Douay-Rheims Bible - IN the beginning was the Word, and
the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Darby Bible Translation - In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
English Revised Version - In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Tyndale New Testament - In the beginning was that word,
and that word was with god: and god was that word.
Webster's Bible Translation - In the beginning was the
Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
World English Bible - In the beginning was the Word, and
the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Young's Literal Translation - In the beginning was the
Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;