Pre-Existence Of Christ-- Some believe-- There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the Body of Christ, and the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived.

Some believe Jesus didn’t exist as a real separate Spirit Being (Person) until He was born of Mary –Died and then went to Heaven and became the

Spirit Being that is in the Book of Revelations. The Statement The above. They Appear to Claim They Can Read God’s Mind—

How Ridiculous. You Make Your Own Conclusion—Also see

SBT Disclosure---Jesus is truly the complete expression of God’s thoughts. Not A Unbiblical Thought of His God

And Father’s Mind --That is Why He is called the Word of God at Rev 19-13 and in other verses.

God created man with free thought and Logic—Logic dictates that God needed no creation and chose freely to give his firstborn Spirit Son all that is –as he was the master craftsman to all—Jesus later choose freely to purchase (or bought) sinful mankind the way His God and Father purposed it. OpenExpressionOfaThoughtPlusArchOrArc.htm

God's Final Word in His Son Open  WeHaveTheWordOfYahweh.htm

. Open FirstBorn.htm And FREEasGOD.htm-- DenyingJesus.htm--JOHN316.htm Compare 1 Cor 7-22-23 Here’s 2001 Translation  22 because anyone (in unity with the Lord) who was called as a slave has become free in the Lord. And whoever was called when free, is a slave of the Anointed One. 23 You were bought and paid for, so stop becoming slaves to men. 24 So brothers, it doesn’t matter what condition each [of you] were called in, just stay that way, next to God.


In the past, commentators and translators who held to the Trinity/Oneness and No Jesus before Mary doctrines argued that qa·nah´ should here be rendered “possessed.” Qa·nah´ can convey the sense of either “acquire (possess)” or “produce.” (Gen. 4:1; Deut. 32:6; Ps. 139:13; Neh. 5:16) But scholars acknowledge that the context here points to the rendering “produced” or “created,” since verses 24 and 25 speak of Wisdom as being “brought forth  This rendering is borne out by the Greek Septuagint, the Syriac Peshitta Version and the Targums. So now even translations by Trinitarians, such as the Catholic Jerusalem Bible, use the rendering “produced” or “created.”

 Review all the below TRANSLATIONS After the NIV Note–Open Prov8-22.htm


Proverbs 8:22 From The  NIV Translation Notes

Accuracy Defined & Illustrated                                              Page 65

Proverbs 8:22 is a passage that contains two different issues reflecting new insights from Ugaritic. First, the word traditionally rendered "possess" (qanah) is attested in Ugaritic with the meaning "create, bring forth"; and the NN reflected this new insight in its translation of Genesis 14:19, 22, where the traditional translation was kept in the footnote. Similarly in Proverbs 8:22 the new meaning was expressed in the text while the traditional rendering was retained in the footnote, thus leaving it more open to thechristological view of some interpreters. 12

Second, the word translated "way" (derek) is attested in Ugaritic with a range of meaning, including "dominion" or "work," which can fit in this context along with the new meaning found for qanah ("create"). 13 New light on drk also eexplains the NIV translation of Amos 8:14, where it is rendered "god" (with a footnote, "power"). Apparently derek was an epithet for the deity, "the power of Beersheba," but other suggestions have also been made far understanding this verse.


                              Compare Many Different Translations---on Prov8-22.htm

 open and read verses 24 and 25 in any Bible.




Compare different Commentaries 17:5

"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

kai nun docason me su, pater, para seautw| th| doch| h| eixon (5707) pro tou ton kosmon einai (5750) para soi. 

Some believe-- There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the Body of Christ, and the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived.

Some believe Jesus didn’t exist as a real separate Spirit Being (Person) until He was born of Mary –

Died and then went to Heaven and became the Spirit Being that is in the Book of Revelations..


I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. << John 17:4 >>

5 Reads

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17 Commentaries: Barnes  Calvin  Clarke  Chrysostom  Darby  Gill  Geneva  Guzik JFB  KJV Translators'  Henry's Concise  Matthew Henry  People's NT  Scofield  Teed TSK  Vincent  Wesley



1 Cor 15:10

But by the grace of God I am what I am,---Is Paul The Great I am,



I AM what I AM   Jesus/Jehovah or Paul Study I-AM.htm



More in 44.htm



[Jehovah] is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.—2 Pet. 3:9.

Jehovah sent his Son, who tirelessly appealed to the Jews to become reconciled to God. Jesus’ patience perfectly mirrored that of his Father. With full knowledge that he was soon to be put to death, Jesus lamented: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it.” (Matt. 23:37) These poignant words are not those of a stern judge who is eager to punish someone but those of a loving friend who is patient with people. Jesus, like his Father in heaven, wanted the people to repent and escape adverse judgment. Some did respond favorably and escaped the terrible judgment that came upon Jerusalem in 70 C.E.—Luke 21:20-22. w 2/1/06 9


1 Corinthians 15:42-49 – Soul-like and Spirit-like Bodies

1CO15:42 Just so is the resurrection of those dead.898 [The body] is sown [in the ground] in corruption899 – it is being raised up in incorruption.900


Just so is the resurrection of those dead: It is possible Paul make include two resurrections with this statement as he has just mentioned the earthly and the heavenly. For “those of Christ at his Parousia” will attain to heavenly bodies, while those dead made alive at the end of the Thousand Years will enjoy earthly bodies.



[The body] is sown [in the ground] in corruption: When the human body is buried it is already starting to decay or corrupt. Note John 11:39. Paul has in mind primarily the death of a Saint and not mankind in general.



It is being raised up in incorruption: That is, the new body God wills is one that will not decay, but is incorruptible.

1CO15:43 [The body] is being sown [in the ground] without honor901 – it is being raised up in glory.902 [The body] is being sown [in the ground] without any strength903 – it is being raised up in power.904


[The body] is being sown [in the ground] without honor: Despite all attempts to the contrary, a dead body does not possess that glory of the living. The body is buried in the ground pale, lifeless, and with a disagreeable odor unless prepared with perfumed oils.



It is being raised up in glory: Glory is the opposite of dishonor. The Greek DOXA also carries the idea of light, brilliance, honorable.



Without any strength: Or, weak. It is obvious the buried body possesses no strength or power. It tumbles into the grave grotesquely, its muscles and sinew unable to provide any honorable posture or position.



Raised up in power: The Greek is DYNAMEI and truly the risen Saint becomes celestially dynamic through the “power of the resurrection.” [Ephesians 1:18, 19] Also upon their heavenly appointment they receive “power” to judge humankind. [Revelation 20:4]

1CO15:44 It is being sown [in the ground] as a soul-like body905 – it is being raised up a spirit-like [body].906 If [there] is a soul-like body, [there is] a spirit-like body.907


A soul-like body: The Greek is SOMA PSYCHICON and has a wide number of renderings: natural, physical, animal, human – all hiding the real definition of “soul.” [KIT: soulical] For details on “soul” see the work Where Are the Dead? in Nazarene Commentary 2000©. We do not possess a soul. We are a soul, just as Adam. [Genesis 2:7] The word PSYCHE occurs nearly 1000 times in the Greek Bible and not once is it associated with immortality. Over 150 times it is associated with mortality. That is, the soul can die, as it is mortal, corruptible. Note the first occurrence of “soul” in the Bible is that of animals in Genesis chapter 1. Indeed, in Latin, the word for “soul” is ANIMAS, from which comes “animal” – something animated.



Raised up a spirit-like [body]: Or, spiritual. The Greek is SOMA PNEUMATICON. Both the Hebrew and Greek roots for these words are from breath [breathing] or wind. The body buried in the ground was soul-like – animal, physical, decayable, weak, dishonorable, mortal, dirty. The body God wills for the risen Saint is not the soul-like, but spirit-like. Paul will define this type of body as heavenly, incorruptible, immortal, powerful, glorious, and patterned on the image of the Master. Nowhere in this explanation does Paul state the fleshly body of the Saint will rise in the resurrection.



If [there] is a soul-like body, [there is] a spirit-like body: There are two body types, both virtual opposites. Compare Paul’s adjectives in describing these two – the earthly and heavenly.

1CO15:45 Just so it has been written, “The first human Adam became a living soul.”908 [Genesis 2:7] The last Adam became a life-giving Pneuma.909


The first human Adam became a living soul: Paul paraphrases Genesis 2:7 which describes the first human soul Adam as a composition of two things: Eden’s soil, and God’s Breath. [Compare Ecclesiastes 3:19-21.]



The last Adam became a life-giving Pneuma: Or, KJV: was made a quickening spirit; ASV: a life-giving spirit. Jesus Christ was an equal of Adam – a perfect human being, an anthropoid or hominid. Nowhere is Jesus ever describes as a THEOS-ANTHROPOS [god-man], a term Paul could have easily created. Jesus showed his humanity in his thirst, hunger, tiredness, and in the end, sickness. As a “life-giving Spirit” the Nazarene explains this was given him by his Father. [John 5:26; 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 Peter 3:18] Compare Paul’s drawing a correspondence with Adam at Romans 5:14 and 1 Timothy 2:5, 6.

1CO15:46 However, the original is not spirit-like, but rather the soul-like,910 thereafter the spirit-like.911


The original is not spirit-like, but rather the soul-like: Or, KJV: that was not first which is spiritual but that which is natural; NEB: observe the spiritual does not come first; KNX: natural life comes first. No human, but Christ, had a pre-existence. Though some believe all humans existed first as a spiritual being, this is not what Paul teaches. He makes it clear the first is not the spiritual, but the physical, or soul-like – the animal. This belief is in opposition to the cyclic view of the cosmos – the Hindu-Egyptian philosophy adopted by the Greeks.



Thereafter the spirit-like: Or, spiritual. The Saint is first a living human being – animal, physical, soul-like – and upon resurrection [raised up, made alive] at theParousia, becomes spirit-like: heavenly, immortal and incorruptible, non-flesh and blood. [1 Corinthians 15:50-52] Jesus taught the same: those raised in the resurrection would be “like the angels” which are elsewhere described “spirits.” [Luke 20:36; Hebrews 1:14]

1CO15:47 The original human was from the earthy ground,912 the Second Man originated from heaven.913


The original human was from the earthy ground: Adam was created from the soil of Eden. [Genesis 2:7] After his sin Adam did not go to either a heaven or a hell, but back to the very dirt where he originated. [Genesis 3:19]



The Second Man originated from heaven: Or, KJV: the second man is the Master from heaven; MOF: man the second is from heaven. Paul believed and taught the pre-existence of Jesus Christ as a heavenly being. Compare Philippians 2:5-7. [See a Biblical Article on the subject of Christ’s pre-existence in Nazarene Commentary 2000©.]

1CO15:48 From the clay-person [originated] also those persons who are clay;914 and, of the heavenly person – of the same kind are those heavenly persons.915


From the clay-person [originated] also those persons who are clay: Or, dusty, dirty, earthy, earth-born. The Hebrew of Genesis 2:7 is literally “clay” from A-PHAR’. From this one man came all humanity. Compare Acts 17:26. More and more DNA studies narrow all humanity to a few descendents.



Of the heavenly person – of the same kind are those heavenly persons: Or, KJV: and is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly; NEB: the heavenly man is the pattern of all the heavenly. Christ becomes the pattern for the Saints in heaven. Never could the Saints become God, but they can be patterned after the Son. Compare Romans 8:29 and Philippians 3:21.

1CO15:49 And just as we bore the image of the clay-person,916 we should also bear the image of the heavenly Person.917


And just as we bore the image of the clay-person: That is, “Just as we look like Adam.” Or, earthly, material, dust. Note Genesis 5:3.



We should also bear the image of the heavenly Person: That is, “We shall all resemble the glorified Christ.” Compare notes on Roman 8:29 and Hebrews 2:10, 11.

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 – The Atomic Mystery

1CO15:50 Now this I tell you, brothers, that flesh and blood are unable to inherit God’s Kingdom.918 Nor can that which is corruptible inherit incorruption.919


Flesh and blood are unable to inherit God’s Kingdom: Or, cannot, impossible; WMS: our physical bodies cannot take part in the kingdom of God. It is clear that those who originated from Adam are “flesh and blood.” Paul thus adds another description of the heavenly, spirit-like body – it is not flesh and blood. Jesus said that “a spirit does not have flesh and bones.” [Luke 24:39] Here the “Kingdom” is that of the Father. Compare Matthew 13:40-32.



Nor can that which is corruptible inherit incorruption: Or, using the parallel word: “the mortal cannot inherit immorality.” That is, both incorruption and immortality must be “put on” the spirit-like body which is resurrected. This could only occur after the parousia-judgment. [2 Corinthians 5:1, 10]

1CO15:51 Behold! I tell you a divine mystery920 – we shall not all lay down in sleep,921 but we all shall be changed922 


I tell you a divine mystery: Or, sacred secret, secret truth. Compare Paul’s introduction to 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Jesus uses the word MYSTERION. Paul has already used it 1 Corinthians 2:1, 7. Compare also Romans 11:25; 16:25; Ephesians 1:9; 3:3, 4, 9; 5:32; 6:19; Colossians 1:26, 27; 2:2; 4:3; 1 Timothy 3:9, 16.



We shall not all lay down in sleep: Or, die. [GDS, MOF] Some of “those of Christ” [1 Corinthians 15:23] will not die as the vast majority of the Church. [Revelation 6:9-11] “Sleep” is the state of the dead – unconscious. [Psalm 146:3, 4; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21; 9:5, 10; John 11:11-14]



But we all shall be changed: Or, transformed. Compare Philippians 3:21. There are two views here: a] the “we” includes all those who are raised spirit-like to heaven; and, b] the “we” is similar to that of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and includes only those “who do not die.” These will experience some instantaneous change. The latter seems very harmonious with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

1CO15:52 in an atomic moment,923 in a blink of an eye924 at the last trumpet. For, the trumpet will sound and those dead will be raised up incorruptible925 – and we shall be changed.926


In an atomic moment: Or, a moment, suddenly. The Greek is ATOMOS [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance #823, cannot be divided in two, moment of time] and originally meant the thinnest possible slice of bread and then came to mean the briefest period of time.



In a blink of an eye: Or, twinkling of an eye. The eye blinks between 1/250th and 1/500th of a second.



The trumpet will sound and those dead will be raised up incorruptible: Or, imperishable, immortal. Paul mentions such a trumpet in his earlier epistle. [1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17] In Revelation it is during the 7th Trumpet that the Saints receive their judgment and reward. [Revelation 11:15-18]



We shall be changed: Or, transformed, utterly changed. It is possible the editorial “we” here is the same as the “we the living” at 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 – those who experience the Rapture. Compare notes in Nazarene Commentary 2000© on 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and Revelation 11:12, 13. At Philippians 3:21 Paul uses the Greek SCHEMATIC. On the “we” Paul does not mean necessarily himself, as though he expected the resurrection immediately or within his life. He explains this mistaken notion in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

1CO15:53 For it is a necessity for the corruptible to put on itself incorruption,927 and this mortal [person] to put on itself immortality.928


Corruptible to put on itself incorruption: Paul has already said that “corruption cannot inherit incorruption” as if it was the natural thing for an immaterial human soul. Rather, those persons formerly corruptible [decayable, capable of rotting] must “put on” incorruption.



This mortal [person] to put on itself immortality: Incorruption describes the body, while immortality describes

1CO15:54 However, whenever this mortal [person] should put on immortality, then will occur the Word that has been written,929 “The death was swallowed down unto victory!”930 [Isaiah 25:8]


Then will occur the Word that has been written: Or, KJV: then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written; MON: then will the words of Scripture come to pass. Paul is going to make an inspired interpretation of Isaiah 25:8 and apply it to the heavenly resurrection.



The death was swallowed down unto victory: Or, GDS: triumphantly destroyed. The context of Isaiah 25:8 is also alluded to at Revelation 7:17 and Revelation 21:4. 2 Corinthians 5:4 may also be an allusion to Isaiah 25:8. Again, the word “death” has the article indicating a specific death – that traceable to Adam.

1CO15:55 “Where, Death, is your victory? Where, Death, is your sting?”931 [Hosea 13:14]


Where, Death, is your victory? Where, Death, is your sting: Paul quotes Hosea 13:14. He will not give an inspired interpretation of the verse.

1CO15:56 Now, the sting of death is the Sin,932 but the power of the Sin [is] the Law.933


The sting of death is the Sin: The Greek for “sin” has the article indicating a specific sin – that traceable to Adam. [Romans 5:12; 6:23] That is the sting or venom producing death.



But the power of the Sin [is] the Law: Sin is the transgression of law. [1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:13] Since the previous phrases indicated this “sting” is no more, it infers the Law of Moses is no more.

1CO15:57 But thanks to The God, the One giving us “the victory”934 [Isaiah 25:8] by means of our Master Jesus Christ.